Gwen's Ageless Definition of Andragogy
Gwen suggests that the transition in a student from needing to be spoon-fed learning to a more independent state of seeking sometimes happens as early as middle school, while some adults in graduate school are still asking, "Is this on the test?"
The question is an excellent one and Gwen does a great job of putting it forth. In her examination of the word and its meaning, she puts responsibility on both the student and the teacher. The word andragogy then becomes a fluid term referring to that developmental point at which an individual student becomes able and interested in accepting responsibility for his or her own learning. The teacher's responsibility is to recognize when that has happened and respond accordingly, getting out of the student's way and providing the support needed for their individual pursuit.
I find this very exciting. What do the teachers out there think? I know you are already expected to be miracle workers, and this definition of andragogy adds one more dimension to your mighty list of expectations.
What do the adult students out there think? This has implications for you too. If you haven't already embraced responsibility for your own learning, it's time. Teachers of adults can't be expected to hold your hand.
Share your thoughts.
Comments
Thanks for sharing Gwen’s blog with us. Here is the post I made on her blog, regarding effective vs chronological age:
“Hi!
This is a fascinating topic, and one that I have been “preaching” for years. I believe there is a distinction between adult and child learners. However, the distinction between adult and child is often artificial or poorly defined.
Instead of looking at “actual age” or chronological age of the learner, we should examine the “effective age” of the learner. How old does the learner act? What is their emotional level?
According to this outlook, a learner might be 5, but act like a more mature learner than someone who is 10.
The transition from child to adult is gradual, and each individual makes the journey on a different emotional (affective and cognitive) timetable.
Much like we have Blooms Taxonomy for the cognitive and affective domains, we should develop a taxonomy (or diagram) for the transition from child to adult. Knowles has a good start, but the scale should be measured effectively, vis a vis chronologically.
Thanks for starting this great post. I would be happy to work with you on this project.
Sam”
Please feel free to follow up with me if this interests you.
Sam
Sam! Hi! Great thoughts. I love the idea of a taxonomy. Teachers already have their hands so full. I’m wondering how they would ever keep up with measuring one more thing, and yet it would be the absolute best thing for the student. Share more of your thoughts.
Deb
Thanks for the kind words Deb. What’s another thing to keep track of?
In the end, all of these taxonomies should merge. I am thinking of forming a mindmap of these categories, to see how they relate to each other visually.
Sam
Since I didn’t start college until I was 48, I found some instructors don’t know how to teach a student who is older than they are. I lived through times when some of my instructors weren’t even born, yet they were trying to tell me how things were at that time in history. I found I had to play a game of near stupidity to say the things they expected so I could be graded not on what I knew but what falsehood or opinion they had.
Judy, that’s horrible! I understand your hesitation to speak up, but what’s the point of going to class to learn things that aren’t true? I would encourage you to call it to *someone’s* attention. Is it too late?
Deb
Judy, I know exactly what you mean. You post points to the great need for higher education to formally recognize the values of pedagogy that work, there are many, and depart from those that do not work, again, there are many. As I’ve stated, I believe that Knowles does a good job of making clear some of the higher-level differences that make an enormous shift in learners motivations and orientation to learning, but I believe, as I’ve stated there is more to it than just an age, or a title. However, as you point out, whether or not we can name it or pin it down, the need to recognize adults as more than just “too big for little desks” is real. From an andragogical standpoint, your age is not that important, what is important is how you direct yourself through your learning process, or not. I appreciate your sharing your experience and joining in the discussion.
Teaching at a University in the Adult and Graduate Studies department, I find that some adult students are not ready for andragogy. Oftentimes it necessary to first explain this concept to students and then allow them to direct their learning. However, for some it is too much responsibility and would rather be spoon fed. For those who understand, and willing to take on the challenge they find much joy is searching out additional information and contributing to their learning experience. Consequently, it becomes necessary to have a more pedagogical approach to teaching. However, I prefer dialogue and interacting with students. Is it just the setting that I am in?
Great post – a subject I often try to point out the benefits an androgogic style to my colleagues in a team of front line community trainers delivering ICT.
It does seem that as many learners have not had any focussed learning for many years that they need to ‘learn how to learn’ before actually becoming a confident learner. It does seem that pedagogy fills this void, but I find that quite often a goal orientated approach and giving a structure for fulfilment – nothing like the lure of a new job to get people’s minds into gear – can work. But the structure and the goals have to be introduced and reinforced; I recall a teacher I knew delivering a pre-course to a group of learners about to follow an online system for improving literacy/numeracy which needed a level of understanding as to what was required of them in the first place….
Am I understanding correctly that several of you are saying it’s a good idea to start a new class with a pedagogical style, get students going, and then move gradually to andragogy, especially for those students who need it?
Personally, I think every class must be analyzed on its own merits. What is the effective age of the participants? A class of 12 year-olds with effective ages of 21 year-olds might be taught with the same andragological methods as a class of 21 year-olds with an effective age to match.
Sam
You’re right, of course, Sam. You would never have a class of students who were all at the same level at the same time. We really don’t give our teachers the credit they deserve!
Everyone, Sam has started a dialogue about andragogy vs. pedagogy here: http://tinyurl.com/djabov
Stop by when you’re making your rounds and tell us what you think.
Deb
The shift in education practice at the elementary and secondary levels is focused on learner-centered instruction. No longer is ’spoon feeding’ students of any age an acceptable practice. At the elementary grades we see this as ‘learning centers’ and constructivist education practice focusing on students as learners, rather than the teacher. Teaching institutions are training teachers to be the ‘guide on the side’ rather than the ’sage on the stage’ with instruction meant to facilitate active learning and engagement of the learner (child) as an active participant in the learning process. Providing meaning and purpose for learning is a strong component of this teaching philosophy.
Thanks for sharing this, Marsha. I think I’ll blog about your comments today.
On being asked if it is too late for the classes I was in, yes. I have gone on to earn an Associate Degree, a Bachelor of Science, and for the last 3 years, am trying to find my way in the world of employment. The problem there is that no one will hire me. I have gone to group interviews where everyone is young enough to be my child. I have had several interviews, but never get a second call, even when I have more education and experience than the young ones. I can give an impressive enough phone interview, but then when I go for the “in person” one, I get looked at like I don’t belong. I got the education so I could support myself in my old age. I am 56 now and feel just as new at all this as the “kids”. My field is Social Services.
Re-reading my last comment, I realize that I may have come off as an old codger who puts all the blame on others. That is far from the truth. I am a people person. I had a Girl Scout Troop for 14 years. Currently my child focus is on my Sunday School class for early elemtary students. I was President of a student organization that included people of all ages. I respect people for who they are, not how old they are. I spent the last 4 years working at a non-profit for people with all stages of mental disability. It was when I started looking for something full-time, that I never got farther than the first interview.
Hi Judy! I, too, am 56. If someone doesn’t want to hire me, that’s there loss. I do much of my work at a distance (education, writing, etc) so people might not know what I look like…but my image is on my website, so they shouldn’t be surprised.
I have not noticed any age discrimination, but perhaps that is my rose colored glasses?
Sam
Thanks for commenting, Sam. With the aging of all of us baby boomers, myself included, I have a feeling business will have to start realizing age makes us better, not obsolete!